it has to have happened.
people get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.. does that ever happen?
or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old kingdom hall?.
It has to have happened. People get stressed out, an elder or overseer takes just two steps over the line and gets a fat lip for his trouble.
Does that ever happen? Or maybe someone "counsels" a brother at the wrong time and tempers flare at the old Kingdom Hall?
We're all people and are sometimes given to reacting in anger. What would be the disciplinary action for such a thing?
Jehovah's Witnesses completely take the term "Armageddon" out of context. I've asked so many of them to justify the event they're expecting with the event the Bible speaks of when it talks about Armageddon, and not one of them has managed to do it. They read the Bible, study it, and yet they have no idea what Armageddon meant to the ancient Jews or the Christians. The Governing Body takes a fairly interesting and redemptive prophecy and converts it into an engine of hatred and fear in which God slaughters much of the human race.
Brock, in his narrative, talks about how many JWs tell each other, "...well, they're going to get theirs!" and smugly believe that God will avenge them of every criticism or slur that's ever been leveled against them. In fact, everything from status (pecking order) to revenge is at the center of its theology. Those foolish enough to go against those who have been appointed over them apparently risk disciplinary action.
The entire Christian movement was built on forgiveness and service. When a JW denies himself or herself college, they deny themselves personal betterment. When the young people at Bethel were criticized for using the weight room, the critics failed to understand that exercising one's body is a way of building personal discipline and respecting the temple that God gave them. It's not advanced theology. Building discipline is a way people master their mind over body. The same is true of denying one's self a college education, mastering one's mind and respecting the intelligence God gave us. How any theologian could miss these points is beyond me.
Apparently it all comes down to control, which is where this domination comes from. Many JWs have stories of being counseled by other members who feel free to simply barge into their business. I know of no other church where that would be acceptable or appropriate.
How does this go over with converts?
another old time comic gone.
i recently saw him on an old johnny carson show.
rest in peace!.
He was one of the greats. I loved the guy.
Comments? Stories? Reminiscences?
After decades of being one, I had to face the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses are all about the judgment of others, and even each other. Their constant sizing up of each other’s “spiritual strengths” and “spiritual weaknesses” is simply reprehensible. Their disdain of everyone else who is not a Witness is disgusting. Their works-based religion is impossible to fulfill without self-reproach and trepidation.
Neither do they really love. Not others. Not even each other. Their so-called love is based on merit only. If you do what they like, they’ll put up with you. If not, they’ll drop you without hesitation and not feel a thing about it. I’m sorry to say it, but this kind of behavior is simply not love.
When I was a Witness, I was just like them too. But I couldn’t see that what I was doing was wrong. As a rule, Jehovah’s Witnesses simply can’t see this about themselves in the same way people with bad body odor usually can’t smell themselves.
--Brock Talon
Journey To God’s House: An Inside Story of Life At The World HQ of Jehovah’s Witnesses
why the big controversy over baptizing the dead, they are dead folks..i know it's a quirky practice but jewish leaders are up in arms because the lds leaders are baptizing holocaust victims..what harm is it??
?hell jw's are preaching everyone will go up in flames no one believe that crap except jw but no one is up in arms, they know they walk a different step....the lds leaders agreed to halt baptisms specifically of jews holocaust victims in 2010 but they are at it again, baptizing jews.
this is funny as hell to me.
Baptism for the dead is a very complex doctrine that goes well beyond the salvational aspects of baptism alone.
Baptism is a covenant, and for a covenant to be efficacious, it requires the consent of both parties, so baptism for the dead requires the consent of those on the other side to make it binding. If they refuse it, they can, and no, they won't go to Hell unless they're bad people and then, it won't last forever. Mormons have a compassionate theology and we view Hell as being remedial rather than retaliatory. It's no less pleasant, but it's designed to redeem souls, though there are penalties.
Work for the dead, including baptism for the dead, was widely practiced in the ancient church. See 1 Corinthians 15:29* and:
Baptism For The Dead In Ancient Times
Baptism For The Dead Blog
There was a fierce debate about it in the patristic era of the church, but no one can deny now that the early Christians believed in it, and that they believed men had spirits. The whole soul sleeping doctrine was essentially an Adventist doctrine.
We don't intentionally seek out Holocaust victims, but we occasionally have names submitted from other sources. We believe one of the primary reasons the Millennium will take place is to do work for the dead.
* "Else what shall they do who are baptized for the dead if the dead
rise not at all. Why are they then baptized for the dead?"
i've been thinking about this the past few days and curious what the honest consensus is here just for fun.. show of hands,.
is the governing body.... a: completely sincere.
they really do believe what they teach.. b: somewhat sincere.
When these guys go to Kingdom Halls far away from their Bethel HQ, they're treated as modern apostles -- rock stars, super celebrities. Have you ever seen any of them before or after a meeting or special assembly who wasn't surrounded by people? These are people who are going to be rulers in Heaven. And I don't know, but I suspect, that many of them would not take kindly to any of you younger people partaking of the sacramental emblems.
People in the congregations have to be wondering why this Armageddon thing hasn't happened yet and, really, how much longer it's going to take before Jehovah brings things to a close and destroys the wicked. How much longer will it be before they begin expressing hostility is the golden question. Geesh, here we are in 2017 and it's really getting close now. Every day Is One Day Closer! would be an excellent theme to replace the Millions Now Living Will Never Die! or whatever it was. Don't these people ever get angry?
I've never seen what good the Governing Body was, anyway. Not only do they spread false hope, they teach their followers to have contempt on their family and friends by teaching them that they will perish in the destruction that is soon to come. That alone is pretty sick.
i've been thinking about this the past few days and curious what the honest consensus is here just for fun.. show of hands,.
is the governing body.... a: completely sincere.
they really do believe what they teach.. b: somewhat sincere.
I go with B: Somewhat Sincere.
They have gone through a lot of trouble lately declaring that they do not experience revelation or inspiration as part of their calling. Why would they do this if they didn't have some misgivings. They know most JWs envision them as prophets, and as guides appointed by Jehovah to lead his organization. But it must be tough to lead lives where you're at the top and you get NOTHING! After all, you're supposed to feed God's people spiritual meat and drink and it's like pointing a radio telescope up at the sky and getting residual static. On the one hand, they're coming up empty handed, but on the other, what other religion could be right?
Option 1: If JWs aren't right, then who is? We've thought it out and we're as perfect as perfect can be. Let's hold an even keel and hope for the best.
Option 2: God has revealed everything he intended to. He expects us to take the spiritual meat and feed it to the congregations, which we're doing. Nothing's wrong.
Option 3: We could have figured this whole thing out wrong, but as long as we don't actually claim to be prophets, we can have some degree of plausible deniability.
Option 4: We're not who we've made ourselves out to be. We used to imply we had the inside track to God, but we've been disasters when you think about it. Every single date we've been wrong about and every event we've claimed had to be invisible, so even we couldn't see it. We're screwed, but if we jump ship, what happens if the Watchtower thing is real?
Quite a choice to make, no?
first the bible students represented an insulated layer.
they were the faithful and discreet slave of jehovah who were expected to guide the people in all matters of overall import.
but eventually someone noticed that in the first century, the seven churches were not independent, but had a council to guide them in weightier matters.
I've been searching for Franz's book and have been unable to find it.
Anyone have a copy in PDF?
ray publisherer interviewed one-time bethelite peon "brock talon" about four years ago and i'm now reading talon's book journey to bethel.
for those of you who may not be jws (and even those who were and are), that journey provides a fascinating insight into the pecking order at "god's house"... at least how it was in the early 80s.
and it's a book even the rank-and-file faithful would find amusing.
Well, the more the merrier.
Do we have any Bethelites who post regularly here?
I've always been curious about their interaction with the GB members there. The Brock Talon (where do they get these names?) fellow says interacting with GB members is the closest thing to hobknobbing with Abraham and Moses that a JW could imagine! These are men who have a direct line to God, he said. But every chance they get, they deny having any sort of communication or even inspiration from God. Doesn't that mean they're just like everyone else, though?
If you're a devout JW and brand new to Bethel, and you find your elevator door opens that first week and a GB member steps inside. How is that like riding with Moses? Moses actually had conversations with God. He also wrought many miracles by the power God gave him. But what have "the Slave" done, lately or in the past? The only way they can stop the elevator is to hit the button just like you or anyone else.
I'm not saying they have to part the Red Sea, but shouldn't they at least be plugged in at some point? If they're great scholars or notable thinkers, I could see a little hero worship when the doors opened, but it seems their chief claim to fame seems to be power.
please excuse me for long-winded ranting.
i know, as do most of us here that "love" is not something that the jdub's are known for except in their deluded, feeble minds.. i can handle their hypocrisy when it is directed at me, but when it is aimed at family who for decades have genuinely been the type of jw that the watchtower presents to the public, and when it is motivated by pure hate, then i get pissed!.
my mother was dunked in the 1940's and my father in the 1950's.
As an outsider to the religion, I believe the one thing missing to the JWs that makes them so despised by its members and former members is kindness. Charity. It gets lost in the laws, rules and discipline of the system.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth. (1 Corinthians 13)
It's not enough to just donate to the poor. Charity involves a giving of the heart and soul as well as one's sustenance. How can one rejoice in the truth while thinking evil of one's brethren, and how can one do that if he or she is engaged in spiritual warfare such as shunning, which is designed to increase despair and break up family and friends?
As the apostle noted, charity "suffereth long and is kind." It envieth not, meaning it doesn't seek to be an elder or result in a higher pecking order. It's not "puffed up" in arrogance or pride. Or smuggness. And it rejoiceth not in iniquity (and what's shunning if not rejoicing in someone else's iniquity?).
One may read the entire New Testament and not find a single instance of Jesus treating one with such reproach. Or his followers. I recently read of one GB member who grilled his fellow Bethelites on the creation days and various laws given in the days of Moses. To him those things were what was important. Discipline. Regulations. But when it comes to simple acts of kindness, compassion -- something that can't, and shouldn't, be placed on a weekly record, there's apparently no point in it.
